《炉石传说》总监Ben Brode谈游戏中休闲模式的概念

原作者：JASON WILSON 译者：Vivian Xue

《炉石传说》不是一个能让玩家“浪”的游戏。标准和狂野两大排位模式中充满了追求胜利的玩家（正如他们所说，爬天梯）。但如果你认为不那么看重输赢的休闲模式能让你获得更多乐趣和体验创造性，你就大错特错了。

通常《炉石传说》中都有一个最强的卡组——比如奥秘法和海盗战卡组，直到冰封王座的骑士出现，或者之前的青玉德，不过最近被炉石开发团队削弱了——天梯模式可能会变得相当无聊。

遇到这种情况时，我倾向于转玩狂野模式——包含了所有的套牌——或者休闲模式。但是狂野模式也和标准模式一样存在着奥秘法和海盗战这类卡组。因此当我对狂野和标准模式有点恼火时，我会选择休闲模式。这个夏天，我对休闲模式也忍无可忍了。我总是遇到那两三个天梯卡组。这令我厌恶至极。我玩休闲模式就是为了避开它们——而且我觉得这个模式存在的意义就是如此。

但在最近同暴雪的Ben Brode（游戏邦注：已经离职），《炉石传说》的游戏总监和开发团队主管的一次交谈后，我发现自己一直从“某一个角度”看待休闲模式。谈话过程中，我了解了Brode和开发团队对休闲模式的看法，他们对这一模式的定义与我对其的定义——一个不存在最强卡组的模式——有一些不同。采访结束后，我感到自己对游戏不同模式的设计有了更深的理解。

希望你也能得到同样的收获。以下是采访记录：

GamesBeat:：作为游戏的设计者，你怎么看待休闲模式？

Ben Brode：视情况而定，你所说的休闲模式是指哪一种？我们目前在游戏中采取的休闲模式，还是休闲玩法这个概念？

GamesBeat：休闲模式的概念。

BB：我认为有两种，一种理想的一种现实的。理想的休闲模式意味着低风险。我不用担心掉分，也不会产生损失规避的心态。我不需要很认真地打游戏，如果我不得不中途停下来，我可以在任何时候关掉游戏，并且不会损失任何东西。这些完全没问题，它不是那种需要百分百专注和充足的空闲时间的硬核游戏。这是《炉石传说》休闲模式最大的目标。

GamesBeat：有意思。但我的看法也许不太一样。

BB：依我看你的目标——我认为你期待的玩法，目前我们的游戏无法为你提供这个条件——不知道我说的对不对，不过听起来你所希望的是一种能够让你使用更多有趣的卡组并且不用担心天梯卡组的游戏。

Hearthstone(from softpedia)

GamesBeat：没错，因为这些卡组会让游戏变得无趣。

BB：我想告诉你一点关于不同的模式、我所认为的它们的优点和不足的地方，我会用一组数据来向你说明要实现你的想法的困难之处。

首先，我想谈一下休闲模式。目前，我们根据玩家的MMR值进行匹配。你赢得比赛MMR值上升，反之下降。如果你是新手，我们会把你和其它新人进行配对，接着我们调整你的MMR这样你就可以和技能水平相当的玩家对抗。当然，不仅是技能，我们还会考虑你所使用的卡组。选择从休闲模式开始玩的玩家拥有的卡牌是有限的，都是一些基础牌，然后逐渐累积起来。但是所有的玩家，即使是新手，胜率都接近于50%。随着你在休闲模式中获得更多的胜利，你的技能加上卡组会使你的MMR值升高。你的水平越高，你就越有可能遇到更高级的卡组，因为这些卡组更好，因此那些使用它们的玩家MMR值也更高。

但是如果你在休闲模式中表现的不是太好，事实上你不太可能遇到这些卡组。玩家们在休闲模式中的体验可能会很不一样，取决于他们的MMR。

GamesBeat：我没想到在休闲模式中也会使用MMR。

BB：是的。这意味着你的胜率会在50%左右。如果你的胜率低于50%，我们将会降低你的MMR值，直到你达到这一条件。这几乎无关于你所使用的卡组，或者你的技能等级，或者你所对抗的卡组。我们会不断调整你的MMR，直到你的胜率达到50%。

那么关于排位，你提到奥秘法和海盗战是你认为最常见的天梯卡组。事实上，这很有趣。你在排位赛中的体验也会因你所处的段位产生变化。在传奇段位中, 这两个卡组只占了14%，并不是一个很大的比例。但是你经常遇到它们。在20级段位中，这两个卡组总共只占了5%。反复碰到相似卡组或天梯卡组的那些玩家大多介于20级到18级之间，也是最活跃的玩家。更多炉石玩家的体验是遇到许多不同的卡组，而不是时常遇到这些强势的卡组。几乎是传奇玩家遇到它们概率的三分之一。我提到这一点是因为很多时候，你的游戏体验取决于你的段位。如果你的段位低，MMR低，你在休闲模式中将不会反复遇到相似的卡组。

但是我认为，为玩家提供多种不同的体验会让游戏更有乐趣，因此——反正，亮点之一就是游戏体验会随着你所处的等级而变化。

GamesBeat：你之前谈到的休闲模式，你对它的定义是低风险，那么《炉石传说》是否满足这一点呢？

BB：是的，我想它是符合的。它是我对于休闲模式的一大目标，但这并不意味着你所希望的避免与天梯卡组对抗的想法是不实际的……曾经我认为实现这种游戏体验的最佳方式是一种炉边聚会的模式，并且不仅仅是在家中。我不知道你是否有过这样的体验。但是我们为了支持这一模式的实现添加了许许多多的功能。当你和其他玩家在现实中玩游戏时，你就会获得这种体验，人们玩游戏并不是为了夺得胜利，因为根本没有奖励，除非是锦标赛，人们展示着他们的创造力和有趣的卡组。我从中获得了无数的乐趣，感觉自己并不是在爬天梯，就是一群20个左右的人聚在一起打牌。我想，这是最接近于你所谈到的那种体验。

GamesBeat：你有计划过推出一些日常模式，让玩家能够试验和建立卡组而不用担心碰到天梯卡组吗？

BB：我思考过这一点。就像我说的，欲望是真实的。我想这种模式对人们来说会很有趣。但是问题是，你该怎么去实现它？比如，我们要制作一种只为了好玩的模式。它将是一种趣味模式，而不是比拼模式。没有人想赢，只想找点乐子。然而人们对于乐趣的定义是截然不同的。一些人觉得远古邪神之血合体有趣，一些人觉得卡牌连击有趣，用大法师安东尼达斯和4个巫师学徒卡牌连击打出无限火球术，在一回合内解决对手。一些人觉得赢才是乐趣，乐趣是——我不喜欢输。我喜欢赢，我希望赢得越多越好。如果你让这些人聚在一起玩你创造的“乐趣模式”，他们中的一些人会因为卡组弱而很容易被打败，那么一些人会说，“听起来真棒，我可以用海盗战卡组虐暴这些人，这对我来说很有趣。”当然你没有办法逼迫玩家使用真的很差的卡组。卡组的强弱是主观性的。并且一些过去很有趣的卡组有时会变得非常强大。沉默净化牧曾经是一个有趣的娱乐套牌，但是随后变得很有竞争力，突然间变成了最强的卡组之一。

GamesBeat：是的，它变成最强的卡组后，我对它失去了兴趣。

BB：没错，对吧？（笑）你想要特立独行，玩那些冷门的卡组。但是. 其他的卡组已经变强了。恐怖的奴隶主是一张有趣、蠢蠢的卡组，但是很快就变成了——哦我想它已经是一个很不错的卡组，也许它是最棒的卡组？卡组的能量等级会随着时间改变。这是很主观的东西。很难决定什么卡组强什么卡组弱。 你可能持有一个冷门的卡组，然后突然间人们发现了它的力量，或者仅仅改变其中的几张卡，它就从一个趣味卡组变成了游戏中的最强卡组之一。你没办法强迫玩家接受一个主观的规定。我认为休闲和排位模式的体验最终会趋同，取决于你所在的段位。目前实现它（趣味模式，游戏邦注）很困难，但是我认为这是有可能实现的，这是一个宏伟的目标，我们可以继续思考。至少目前我还没有想到如何创造一个让玩家们认同的模式，让每个人觉得没错这些是趣味卡组而不是天梯卡组，并且人们不再只为了快速获胜而游戏。

GamesBeat：把这些选择权交到玩家手中如何？比如让他们建立类似沙盒的模式，可以举办自己的比赛，禁用某些卡牌。

BB：我觉得这是一个很棒的主意，让玩家举办自己的比赛。事实上这已经发生了。有一个玩家类似这样做了，他举办了一场比赛并且禁止一些卡牌参赛。我觉得这超级酷。目前这过程有一点点艰难，因为没有管理员，客户端还没有支持它的功能。但是我认为这种功能非常吸引人，特别是当你在现实中聚集了一群人玩游戏时。我们希望能为这些举办炉边聚会的玩家提供这种权力——一些疯狂的模式。我在堪萨斯城碰到过一场比赛，他们用上了转盘。你转动转盘，打开相机，扫描一个二维码，然后你得用扫出来的卡组进行比赛。这很有趣，这种玩法注重游戏本身的乐趣，而不是比赛的输赢。一些人可能抱着竞争的心态，但也很好，我们也支持。

但同时，对于目标不同，从炉石中获得不同乐趣的玩家，我们会继续尝试寻找一些方式来满足所有玩家的需求。

本文由游戏邦编译，转载请注明来源，或咨询微信zhengjintiao

But also, it’s good to try and find ways for different people who have different goals and different things they get fun out of from Hearthstone—we should be looking at ways to support that as well.

Hearthstone doesn’t give players a great place to goof around. The Ranked modes for Standard and Wild, Hearthstone’s two main formats, are filled with people that are mostly focused winning (climbing the ladder, as they say). Casual mode, which doesn’t track wins and losses the same way Ranked does, should be a place where you’d find more interesting, experimental creations. But it isn’t.

Often one deck in Hearthstoneraises above others — as Secret Mage and Pirate Warrior did before Knights of the Frozen Throne, or as Jade Druid had before the Hearthstone development team’s recent round of card changes (aka nerfs) — the ladder can get rather boring.

When this happens, I tend to move either to the Wild mode — which consists of all Hearthstone sets — or Casual. But Wild also has found itself flooded with a couple of decks similar to the Standard ladder: Secret Mage and Pirate Warrior. So when I got miffed at Standard and Wild, I went to Casual. And one day this summer, I got fed up with Casual. I kept seeing the same two or three meta decks there. And I hated it. I was playing Casual to run away from those meta decks — and I thought that’s what the mode is for.

But in a recent conversation with Blizzard Entertainment’s Ben Brode, the game director for Hearthstone and the development team’s boss, showed me that I was viewing Casual from “a certain point of view.” As we talked, I learned that Brode and the development team’s viewpoint on Casual in Hearthstone might mean something different than how I defined it: “a mode where people aren’t playing meta decks.” I came away with more insight into what goes into designing different formats in a video game.

I hope you do as well. Here’s an edited transcript of our interview.

GamesBeat: What does casual mode mean to you as a game designer?

Ben Brode, Hearthstone game director: It’s different depending on your context when you say casual mode. You mean the casual mode we have implemented in the game right now, or just the concept of casual gameplay?

GamesBeat: The concept of casual mode gameplay.

BB: I think there’s an ideal and a reality. Casual mode, ideally, is just low stakes. I don’t have to worry about losing anything or having loss aversion. I don’t have to get my game face on and really try hard. If I have to be interrupted, I can turn it off at any point. I don’t lose anything. It’s totally fine. It isn’t hardcore competition where I need to be 100 percent focused and available. That’s the biggest goal of casual Hearthstone.

GamesBeat: Interesting. I’m just coming into it with a different definition, maybe.

BB: It’s possible. What I think your goal—I think the way you’d like to play Hearthstone, which we don’t have a great opportunity for you to do it in the game right now—tell me if I’m wrong, but it sounded like you wanted a mode where you could play more fun decks and not have to worry about meta decks, basically.

GamesBeat: Yeah, because those get boring to play against.

BB: I pulled a couple of stats, and I wanted to tell you a bit about the different modes and where I think they’re doing well in that respect, and where they’re doing badly, just to talk about some of the challenges of getting exactly what you want.

First, I wanted to talk about casual mode. Right now, there’s an MMR, a matchmaking rating. The MMR goes up if you win games and goes down if you lose games. Starting out, we match you against new players if you’re a new player, and then we adjust your MMR so you can fight against players of similar skill. It’s not just skill, of course. People who are coming into the casual matchmaking to begin with have very limited collections, just basic cards, and then they start to accrue cards. It’s a component of what deck you’re using and your skill level. But players across the whole spectrum, even brand new players, get very close to a 50 percent win rate. As you win more in casual, that skill plus what deck you’re using will drive you to a higher MMR. The better you do in casual the more likely you are to see better decks, because those decks are good decks, and so they’ll push someone’s MMR up if they’re using them.

But if you’re not doing well in casual, you’re actually less likely to see those decks. Depending on your MMR, your experience of casual might be very different.

GamesBeat: I had no idea that the MMR was in place for casual mode.

BB: Yeah. It means you’re going to win about half your games. If you win less than half we’ll lower your MMR until you’re winning half your games. It almost doesn’t matter what deck you’re playing, or your skill level, or what deck you’re playing against. We’ll adjust your MMR until you’re winning half your games.

So in ranked, one thing you mentioned was that Pirate Warrior and Secret Mage were the decks you identified as being the most common meta decks. Actually, it’s very interesting. Your experience in ranked is also very different depending on what rank you are. At Legend, those two decks are about 14 percent of the meta, which isn’t a massive number. But you’re seeing them. At rank 20, those decks combined are only 5 percent of the meta. The experience of facing the same decks over and over again, seeing a lot of meta decks—most players are between rank 20 and rank 18, most active players. The experience for the greater Hearthstone audience is seeing a lot of different decks, not seeing meta decks anywhere near as often. Almost a third as often as players at Legend are seeing them. I mention that because there are parts of the game where the experience is very different depending on who you are. If you’re playing at low ranks, at a low MMR in casual, you’re not getting to the point where you’re seeing the same decks over and over again.

But I do think Hearthstone is more fun when you have a variety of experiences, so—anyway, one of the highlights is that it’s sometimes different depending on where you’re at.

GamesBeat: After your meaning of what a casual mode is, since you define it as being low stakes, does what you and the Hearthstone team has created achieve that definition?

BB: Yeah, I think it does. But I don’t—just because that’s one of my big goals for a casual mode doesn’t mean that your desire to have a place where you don’t play against meta decks isn’t a real thing. … A time where I felt I had the best match to that experience is fireside gatherings. It’s not like a thing you can just do at home. I don’t know if you’ve been to a fireside gathering. But we’ve added a ton of new features to support them. When you’re playing in real life with other players, you end up getting that experience. People are not necessarily playing to win, because there is no reward, unless you’re playing a tournament at a fireside gathering. People are showing off their creativity and their fun decks. I’ve had a ton of really fun experiences that are not feeling like I’m playing on the ladder, because it’s just this local environment with about 20 people and their fun decks that they could build with the collections they have. That, I think, is the closest match to the kind of experience you’re talking about.

GamesBeat: Do you have any plans to have some sort of daily mode where people can experiment and build decks without worrying about facing meta decks that they face on the ladder?

BB: I was thinking about this a little bit. Like I say, the desire is real. I think it would be fun for people to play in that mode. The question is, how would you do it? What is the way in which you would force that to happen? For example, let’s say, hey, we’re going to make a mode that’s Fun Only. This is fun mode. It’s not try-hard mode. We’re not trying to win. We’re trying to have fun. People have really different definitions of what fun is for them. For some people fun is trying to get Blood of the Ancient One to go off. For some people fun is playing an infinite combo, getting Antonidas and four Sorcerer’s Apprentices and Fireballing you over and over again, getting that crazy OTK [one-turn kill]. For some people fun is winning. Fun is just—I don’t like losing. I like winning. I like winning as much as possible. If you mix all of those people together, if you create a mode where these people are easier to beat because they’re playing bad decks and you say, “This is Fun Mode,” someone says, “Dang, that sounds great, I’ll play Pirate Warrior there and win a lot of games. That’s fun for me.” There isn’t really an obvious way to force players to play really bad decks. It’s subjective. And decks that used to be fun can sometimes can become very powerful and good. Silence Priest was kind of a fun deck, a meme deck with Purify. But it became very competitive. Suddenly it became one of the better decks.

GamesBeat: Yeah. As soon as it became a better deck, I lost interest in it.

BB: Yeah, right? [Laughs] You want to be hipster. You want to play the decks no one else is playing. But other decks have done that. Grim Patron was kind of a fun, silly deck that quickly became—oh, actually that deck’s really good, maybe it’s the best deck? Decks can change in power level over time. It’s a subjective thing. It’s hard to agree on what decks are good or not good. You can have a deck that no one’s discovered and all of a sudden people realize there’s power in it, or change a couple of cards and now it goes from fun decks only to one of the best decks in the game. There’s no obvious way to force a subjective rule set on players in that way. I think casual and ranked do end up getting close to the experience, depending on what rank you’re playing at. But it is hard. I don’t think it’s crazy to pursue that, though. It’s a noble goal, and I think it’s something we should continue to brainstorm on. At least it’s currently not obvious to me, how to get exactly that as a mode that players can count on not seeing—a mode with decks that everyone would agree, yeah, those are fun decks, not powerful decks, and people aren’t trying to just win as fast as possible.

GamesBeat: What about putting those choices in players’ hands, with a sort of sandbox mode where they can build their own tournaments and ban certain cards?

BB: I think that’s great. The idea of community-run tournaments is very exciting. It’s already happening right now. [One] did something very similar to what you’re talking about, where he ran a tournament and banned a couple of cards. That’s super-cool to me. Right now the process is a little bit more difficult, because there’s no manual admin. It’s not something supported directly in the client. But I think that kind of feature could be very compelling, especially at fireside gatherings, where you have a bunch of people in a real space together. We like empowering our innkeepers who are running the fireside gatherings to do that exact kind of thing – have some crazy modes. I saw a tournament in Kansas City where they had a spinner. You spun the spinner, took out your camera, shot a QR code, and that was the deck you played in the tournament. That’s fun. It focuses on the pure fun and joy of playing Hearthstone, not on competition. Some people are competitive and that’s great. We want to support that too.

But also, it’s good to try and find ways for different people who have different goals and different things they get fun out of from Hearthstone—we should be looking at ways to support that as well. （source：Venturebeat  ）