作者：Ethan Levy

Andrew Mayer是Sojo工作室的创意总监，负责游戏设计和创意方向。在Andrew的20年的职业生涯中，他曾供职于PF Magic、Cartoon Network、PlayFirst、Mob Science以及现在的Sojo工作室。Sojo工作室最近发布了Facebook游戏《WeTopia》。除了设计游戏，Andrew还是蒸汽朋克小说《Society of Steam》的作者。

Ethan Levy（以下简称EL）：我的第一个问题是，什么是游戏设计？

Andrew Mayer（以下简称AM）：好吧。你准备了多少问题？因为，嗯……（笑）

EL：不少于8个。

AM：好吧。对我而言，当说到游戏设计时，我经常使用的短语是“巧妙的挫败”。也就是，用适当的方式把你自己和受众之间隔开。

所以，当你与那些非传统意义上的游戏人合作时，他们就想支持受众和游戏之间的这种关系。简化东西。这是一种良好的本能，但最终，如果你简化到玩家随时可以获得他们想要的任何东西的程度，那游戏就不存在了。

那才是真正的游戏设计。巧妙的挫败，我指的是，你把游戏做得有意义和有趣，但不会让玩家受挫到玩不下去。对于游戏设计，这总是一条可靠的经验法则。

我认为我们还有很多细节可以讨论。但如果你想知道的是适用于所有游戏的“游戏设计”，那么这就是。你可以让游戏困难到玩不了，也可以让游戏很容易赢。电脑也做得到。

所以，平衡困难和容易这两个东西，在此基础上创造一个允许其他行为发生的平台，这就是我所谓的“游戏设计”。

EL：就是在这条平衡线之间，你给玩家具有适当复杂度的挑战和困难，使他们产生我们所谓的“有趣”的感觉。

AM：就是给玩家挑战和机遇，对吗？关键是你不能单纯地把挑战放在玩家面前。回想一下《马里奥2：耀西岛》的全盛时期，那正是宫本茂做得非常好的地方。他让游戏达到完美的平衡。玩家在遇到挑战时会想：“好吧，难度很大，太疯狂了。但我会完成挑战的，困难的另一边一定有什么有价值的东西等着我。”

宫本茂确实很擅长引导玩家。他把面包屑撒在路上，让玩家觉得沿着这条路走下去，就会找到什么好东西。

EL：也就是，把挑战与机遇捆绑在一起？

AM：或者说是，向玩家承诺挑战的另一边存在机遇。我认为执行方法是无穷无尽的。但关键就是给玩家这么做的理由，让他们知道付出是值得的。

EL：那么，游戏设计师的职责是什么？

AM：现在？遵循指标。让游戏变得更好。

有两个阶段。在游戏开发阶段，也就是创造一个承载玩家的平台和开始理解他们的行为模式。

然后，一旦玩家登录平台，设计师的工作就是观察指标并想出优化这些指标的办法。可能并非所有设计师都能认同我的说法，因为听起来不是很光彩。但我认为站在游戏设计的角度上，我们要考虑的东西太多了。

一般来说，我们首先要考虑玩家的主张。我认为这方面我们做得不错，无论玩家是否意识到。但我认为随着指标驱动型社交机制的出现，设计师的工作比以前更加机制化了，有更多定义清晰的东西。

指标并非没有价值，因为确实有价值。但你不可能再像个艺术家那样说：“我拥护硬核玩家。”像John Romero（游戏邦注：他是iD Software的联合创始人之一,作为知名游戏制作人，他负责过许多富有影响力的射击游戏,比如《恶魔城3D0》、《毁灭战士》等。）和Cliffy B（游戏邦注：《战争机器》之父。）那样说：“我是这些玩家的代表，这就是我的地盘，如果我做，他们就会拥护我。”

EL：我认为你的说法确实抹掉了设计师工作的浪漫色彩。

AM：真是惨痛的领悟。

EL：我确实认为，游戏设计比行业中的其他工作更具有浪漫色彩。

AM：做游戏设计师的人比做游戏行业中的其他工作的人更有幻灭感。

成为游戏设计师要经历两个阶段。第一阶段是非常非常想从事游戏设计。第二个阶段是成为游戏设计师一段时间后仍然想继续设计游戏。

这两个阶段是非常不同的。因为一开始，你抱着非常好奇的想法成为游戏设计师，后来当你发现游戏设计的真相时，你会怀疑：“我仍然想当游戏设计师吗？我想退出了吗？”

EL：你是否也有反思自己的职业生涯的时刻？当时你觉得：“我现在知道游戏设计是什么了……”

AM：我仍然时时为游戏设计的真相感到震惊。

是的，我早年时有过那么些时候。当时我在Twin Dolphin工作室工作，我作为助理制作片人参与了第一款游戏的开发。我很快发现，这个项目的制片人锁在自己的办公室里成天到晚打游戏，而程序员们几乎要造反了。

我的工作是做地图，也就是在一张应该有10000*10000方块那么大的地图上贴图，如果你要确切的数字，那么我告诉你，就是1亿。

我不知道一年有没有1亿秒。所以，即使我每天都争分夺秒地工作，每秒放一张贴图，仍然无法让游戏按时交工。当我告诉制作人时，他却让我闭嘴。差不多就是那个意思。

真是令人吃惊。我认为到了这个时候，谁都会觉得应该离开了，对吧？因为我觉得无论你的第一份工作是什么，你总是会怀着你想要什么和你为什么而工作的念头。但你却发现无论你怎么努力都无济于事。

后来当你做第二份工作，你的态度完全变了。你会想，好吧，我不会再做那样的事了。我要支持我在我所供职的公司中坚信的东西。

我说的对吗？你是不是认同我说的？

EL：确实如此。

AM：一开始我们都有一点儿天真，是吧？第一次尝试总是会让我们受一点伤，然后我们才会根据经验教训做决定。

EL：作为创意总监，你面临的最大挑战是什么？

AM：对于目前，我认为是参与制作一种我不熟悉也不感兴趣的类型的游戏。我要负责如何让游戏产生乐趣，还要思考如何布置游戏的动态层次。

也就是，关于游戏的任何假设都必须受到质疑。在过去，你可以提出一些可靠的假设，但现在，因为有了指标，所有假设都必须接受质疑。这有一点儿像，你脚下的地面一直在移动，让你感到紧张不安。任何东西都可能出错，甚至全部出错。

对于像我这样已经工作了很长时间的人来说，另一件让人不安的事是，在过去，你会获得信息然后解构信息，最后想出其中的运作原理。

而现在，如果你看数字，你会说：“如果我来做，我会让玩家增加5%。”对吧？

EL：是的，5%很不得了。

AM：是的。所以现在的创意总监会想：“为什么会这样？没关系。只要放手去做。”你不一定要分析假设，你只要去做，直到假设失效，然后你再转向另一个假设。

在过去你必须理解为什么，而现在却有所不同了—-你正在建设的是一个更大的图景。但你不一定总是能建设成更大的图景。

EL：是的。成为游戏设计师和成为创意总监有什么不同？这两个角色有什么不同？

AM：因为我负责的是项目的大方向，也就是大图景。至少根据我的经验，创意总监负责的是前提和想象视野—-我们在做什么、方向是什么以及为什么朝那个方向？特别是对于新想法。

游戏设计师的工作其实是分解和制作体验。我的工作更多的是关于如何运作？做什么？为什么？而设计师的工作更倾向于如何做？

EL：如果要谈二者之间的区别，还要扯上投资商、CEO、程序员、指标、营销、受众等因素。

AM：还有美工。

EL：美工，对吧？甚至QA。定义视野的工作多少是关于创造想象视野，以及与其他人合作来实现想象视野。

AM：10%的前者加90%的后者。这是合作的过程。我的早期经验告诉我，你得先有一个游戏的好想法，无论你是设计师还是创意总监或其他什么人。

然后你的目标是带领其他人开发其中一个好想法，尽量坚持下去，直到游戏完工。你有一个好想法，然后一切都围绕着这个好想法改变。如果那个好想法生存下来了，那么你就完成了你的工作。

我想到于社交，只是“游戏的假设是什么？我们在做什么？这个东西是什么？”一切都围绕着这个东西改变。发布后的修改也是。

EL：作为创意总监最让你兴奋的东西是什么？

AM：对我而言，是把现实世界和虚拟世界融为一体。至于如何把现实世界融合到游戏世界中，我们的做法就是把现实世界的原因结合到游戏中，这确实让我们非常兴奋。我认为我们正在学习很多秘密配方。我们现在在做的东西绝对没有人其他人在做。

这是让我最感到兴奋的地方；现实世界与虚拟世界之间的墙壁开始崩塌了。当你看iPad等触屏设备，你会觉得游戏就是对现实世界的重绘。我认为那些设备将会对我们的游戏方式产生重大影响。我有一点儿担心电脑也会变成一种平板设备。但我认为技术的进步如此迅速，平板设备和电脑之间将不存在真正的区别。

我们将用数字技术从根本上影响现实世界。就像电力通过电线贯穿到我们生活中一样，我们将数字化现实世界。

EL：反过来，成为创意总监是否有让你沮丧的地方？

AM：我认为主要是有时候不得不作出妥协让步的时候吧？一切都要经过指标。权力和实验是受限制的。我只能实验到能证明指标的程度。这让我感到沮丧。特别是因为我不能像Don Draper（游戏邦注：美剧《广告狂人》中的主角，是一家广告公司的创意总监。）那样大叫：“我干这行已经20年了，我知道自己在做什么。”

你要那么说也可以，但在此之前，你最好保证你的数据都是对的。

EL：是的。我认为随着事业发展，你会发现“我是对的”并不重要。或者说，你会学会放下“我是对的”的态度，拥抱开放对话。

AM：我完全同意。如果对话有用的话，那也不错。但问题是……

EL：那非常困难。

AM：一直保持开放对话的态度非常非常困难。始终保持耐心也无比困难。因为有时候你只有一个念头，就是想让某事完成。

（本文为游戏邦/gamerboom.com编译，拒绝任何不保留版权的转载，如需转载请联系：游戏邦）

On Game Design with Andrew Mayer

by Ethan Levy

I spoke with Andrew Mayer, Creative Director at Sojo Studios, about game design and creative direction. Andrew’s 20 year career includes working for PF Magic, Cartoon Network, PlayFirst, Mob Science and Sojo Studios, where he recently launched WeTopia for Facebook. In addition to designing games, Andrew is the author of the steam punk series Society of Steam.

EL: So the question I start everybody out with is, what is game design?

AM: Okay. How many more questions do you have? Because, uh, [laughs]

EL: There are eight more.

AM: All right. All right. I think for me, the phrase I always use is “artful frustration.” Game design is about properly placing distance between yourself and the audience.

So, when you work with people who aren’t game people traditionally, they want to start pushing back this relationship between the audience and the game. And simplifying stuff. That’s a good instinct but, ultimately, if you simplify it to where the player can get everything they want whenever they want, there isn’t a game there.

And that’s what game design is really. Artful frustration, by which I mean, you want to make it so that it’s fun and it’s pleasant but not so frustrating that players don’t play the game anymore. And that’s always a good rule of thumb.

For me, I think there are more specifics we can talk about. But I think if you’re looking for the universal solvent of every game, this is it. You can make every game impossibly difficult to play or you can make games like pathetically easy to win. The computer can do either.

So, balancing those two things out and creating a platform on which other behaviors can be layered, that to me is the way I think it works.

EL: Riding that fine line where you’re presenting players challenges that are the right level of complexity, the right level of difficulty to be this emotion that we call fun.

AM: Challenges and opportunities, right? The thing is you can’t just present people with challenges. I think this is what Miyamoto did so well if you look back at the heyday of the Mario 2, the Yoshi’s Island/Mario 3D days. What he got there perfectly was this balance of, “Okay, this is really hard. Yes, this is crazy. But I’m going to get through it and there’s going to be something worthwhile when I get to the other side.”

He was really good at that. He was really good at leaving out the breadcrumb trail to show you that there was something worthwhile that was going to be happening as you were going along.

EL: So, bundling a challenge with an opportunity?

AM: Or holding out the promise of an opportunity beyond the challenge. I think there’s almost an infinite number of ways to do it. But, to let the player know that there is a reason to do this and that it’s worth the effort.

EL: So, what is the role of a game designer?

AM: These days? Follow the metrics. Make the game better.

There’s two phases. There’s the game development phase, which is to create a platform for onboarding users and beginning to understand their play patterns.

Then, once they’re in there the designer’s job is to look at the metrics and figure out a way to optimize those metrics. I mean, that’s probably not what anybody wants to hear because it doesn’t sound very glamorous. But I think for the game design position, that’s a lot of what we’re looking at right. In social.

Classically, it was to be a player advocate. I think we did it well, whether they realized it or not. But I think with the advent of the metric-driven social, it’s become a much more mechanistic job than it used to be. Much more defined.

Not that they’re not worth their weight in gold, because they are. But you can’t be the artist to the degree that you can go in and go, “I’m an advocate for the hardcore gamer.” Like John Romero or Cliffy B, where it’s like, “I am the representative of these people and this is my tribe, and if I do it, they will love me.”

EL: I think that’s a very accurate take at stripping away the romanticism of the job.

AM: Hard won knowledge.

EL: And I do think with game design, there’s more romanticism than any other function within the industry.

AM: And more disillusionment from anybody who gets into it than any other industry in the world.

There’s two phases to being a game designer. There’s really, really wanting to do it. And then there’s wanting to do it after you’ve done it for a while.

Those are two very different things. Because you come into it with this idea that it’s going to be this amazing thing. And then when you find out what it really is, you think “Do I still really want to do it? What am I getting out of it?”

EL: Was there a specific moment where you had that point of reflection in your own career? Where you felt like, “I know what game design is now…

AM: And I’m still going to hit myself in the head with a hammer.”

Yeah, it was early for me. At Twin Dolphin games, I came in as an Associate Producer for the very first game I’m going to work on. And it quickly became apparent that the Producer of the project was locked up in his office playing videogames all day and the engineers were basically on the verge of revolt.

And my job was to do a map, I was supposed to laying tiles on a map that’s ten thousand by ten thousand squares. Well, if you do the math on that’s it’s one hundred million.

I don’t think there’s actually one hundred million seconds in a year. So, even if I was working every second of every day, and laying one per second, assuming that nothing went wrong, it would still have been impossible for the game to ship. And when I went to the producer and told him that, he told me to shut up, basically.

So that was an eye-opener. I think for everybody it’s when you leave the first job, right? Because I think whatever your first job is, you come in with a sense of what you want and what you’re working for. And then you try to achieve that and you realize that it didn’t actually help.

And then you start to have a very different attitude when you go to your second job. And you say, okay, well, I’m not going to do that again. I’m going to advocate for something I believe in within the context of the company that I’m working for.

Does that make sense? Does that sound true to you?

EL: It makes perfect sense.

AM: We all come in a little na?ve, right? We all come out of that first gig a little scarred, and then we make some decisions based on that.

EL: What is the biggest challenge you face as a Creative Director?

AM: I think, for me right now, it’s working in genres that I’m not either familiar with or excited about. And trying to figure out how to generate excitement. And also figuring out how to layer game dynamics.

And I’ll tell you what it is. It’s every assumption must be questioned. It used to be that you could make some solid assumptions and now, with the metrics, every assumption must be questioned. So it feels a little bit like the ground is shifting underneath your feet all the time. And that can be disconcerting. Anything can go wrong. It may all go wrong.

The other thing I would say that is disconcerting for someone like me who’s been doing it for a long time, is it used to be that you would get information and you would try to deconstruct that information and figure out why something was happening.

These days, if you see a figure, “Oh, if I do this, I’ll get five percent more users.” Or one percent more users, two percent more users, right?

EL: Yeah, five percent would be gang busters.

AM: Right. So, it’s like, “Okay why is that working? Doesn’t matter. Just do more of it.” You don’t need to deconstruct the assumption necessarily, you just work it until it stops working and then you go work something else.

So that’s a little different than where it used to be that you needed to understand why. When there was this bigger picture that you were building. You don’t always get to build the bigger picture.

EL: Right. What is different between being a game designer than being a creative director? How are the two roles different?

AM: Because I’m responsible for the vision and the overall direction of the project, and for that bigger picture. So the creative director, at least in my experience, is responsible for the premise and the vision. What are we making and where is it going and why are we going there? And also asking “How are we going to get there?” Especially for new ideas.

The game designer’s job is to actually break it down and make the experience. How is this going to work? I’d say my job is more, what are we going to do? And why? And the designer’s job is more, how are we going to do it?

EL: Talking about all the different factors in the equation, you’ve mentioned investors, CEO, engineers, metrics, marketing, audience.

AM: Artists.

EL: Artists, right? And even QA. How much of the job of defining the vision is creating a vision? And how much of it is working with other people to get buy in on a vision.

AM: Ten percent the former and 90 percent of the latter. It’s collaborative. There’s no way around it. What I learned early on is you get to have one good idea per game, whether you’re a designer or a creative director or whatever.

And then the goal is to shepherd that one good idea as far as you can, and try to keep that good idea held together for as long as you can until the game ships. You have one good idea and then everything else is going to change around that good idea. And if that good idea survives, you’ve done your job.

I think with social, it’s just “What is the premise of the game? What are we making? What is the thing?” Everything else swims around that and changes. And changes after launch now, too, which is amazing.

EL: When you look at your role what excites you most about being a creative director?

AM: To me, it’s the integration of the real world and the digital world. So what we’re doing with the real world integration for the game that we’re working on now [at Sojo Studios] is we have these real world causes and integrating real cause into the game is really, really exciting. So, there’s a lot of secret sauce there that I think that we’re learning about. And things that we’re doing that nobody else is doing.

So that’s really exciting to me; the walls between the real world and the virtual world are starting to crumble. And, when you see with the iPad and touch devices, these kind of things… we’re repainting the world in a digital palate. And I think that’s going to have major impact on the way that we play. I was a little worried that computers were going to become pads. But I think that we’re going to go beyond that so quickly, to where there’s going to be no effective difference between the device and the computer.

We’re about to infect the world with digital technology in a really fundamental way. Just like we wove the structure of electricity and running water, and all that stuff into our lives through the wires and stuff we put everywhere. We’re about to digitize the world.

EL: On the converse side, what frustrates you about most about being a creative director?

AM: I think a lot of it is just the purity of the compromise, right? It’s that everything has to be filtered through metrics. There’s no being right, and the experiments are limited. I’m only allowed to experiment to the degree that I can express it as a sense of metrics. So that’s frustrating. Especially because it’s harder to bullshit. It’s harder to be like Don Draper “I’ve been doing this for 20 years, I know what I’m doing.”

You can get away with some of that. But you damn well better have checked your numbers and be right before you try and do it.

EL: Yeah. I think as you career goes on, you learn being right isn’t important. Or, if you can let go of being right as being important and instead be someone who fosters open conversation.

AM: I totally agree with that. And it is good when it works. The problem is. . .

EL: It’s very hard.

AM: It’s very, very hard to be that open all the time. And it’s very hard to be that patient all the time. Because sometimes you just want things to get done.(source:famousaspect)